Boil away everything else and this is what the gun debate comes down to for hard-core gun owners: Their hobby is worth more to them than anything else.
It’s worth more than your life or the life of someone you love.
It’s worth more than the subtle fear we all have now when we’re in public places – concerts, movies, malls etc.
It’s certainly worth more than the fact that every single school in this country has long since instituted active shooter drills and protocols. (This still boggles the imagination.)
The reality is, given a choice between doing something – anything – to help end the madness as described above or giving up their assault-style rifles and high-capacity magazines, hard-core gun owners – the ones who shout the loudest and have come to speak for the majority of silent gun owners who would probably welcome a compromise – will choose their toys every time.
I realize guns owners will howl when they read this. I will get hate mail – nothing new there. I will probably get a few muted threats of violence. I will most certainly be clubbed with the standard-issue, NRA-approved talking points, including:
- If we ban one type of gun, weapon or magazine then “liberals” will eventually ban them all.
- It’s the person, not the tool. (This is the one that goes, “Why don’t we ban cars then? Cars kill people, too.”)
- Mental health is the problem, not guns.
- I own a gun and I’ve never shot anyone.
- We have to protect ourselves against the government.
- We never used to have this problem.
- There’s nothing that can be done.
But these people know the truth whether they admit it or not.
They know the gun debate isn’t about the Second Amendment because no one is seriously proposing to take away all guns. (Tactic: Take one stupid thing said by one stupid person at one time somewhere in the past, extrapolate to everyone who is a Democrat, and voila, instant everlasting gobstopper of a gun argument.)
They know it’s not a hunting, target shooting or self-protection issue because there are plenty of other options for those.
They know assault-style weapons and high capacity magazines aren’t just tools that are safe in anybody’s hands. If that’s the case, I’m buying myself a fully-armed Blackhawk helicopter just because I think they’re cool. Don’t worry. You can trust me. Trust me on that.
They know mental health isn’t the crux of the issue because most people – including most of the shooters – aren’t clinically mentally ill. They’re more often depressed, lonely and angry. It’s impossible to say this is a mental health issue when nowhere else in the world do they have the mass murder problem we have. Are gun enthusiasts saying we’re just more nuts in America? Call me a patriot, but I don’t buy it.
They know we didn’t used to have this problem because in the past we didn’t have or weren’t stupid enough to allow low-cost semi-automatics like the AR-15 (the mass murder weapon of choice but by no means the only culprit, by the way), which comes with a 30-round magazine, which many owners discard in favor of the perfectly legal 100-round magazine.
They even know that, yes, there are plenty of things we could do, starting with banning the tools that make mass murder so easy that anyone can do it. (You want to keep your AR-15? Fine. Ban magazines.) (Brady law impact article here.)
I know they know these things are true because I don’t think gun owners are dumber or more immoral than the rest of us. I think they’re smart, caring people who work hard and care for their families, just like (gasp) liberals.
But they do care more about their hobby than they care about anything else, and in defense of it they convince themselves that the NRA is a guiding light and willingly consume and regurgitate its propaganda. (Sorry, but that’s exactly what it is.)
Why do hard-core gun owners do it? I can’t say. Selfishness? Maybe. Politics? Certainly. But maybe it’s also because the mass murder virus hasn’t directly touched their lives yet.
If so, well, sadly, the way things are headed, it eventually will.
Image credit: Mr. Anderson
I just watched an interview with a politician who repeated the “We don’t need a knee-jerk reaction”. He felt that the cause of all the violence was movies and video games, and lack of parental control, because 20 years ago there were more guns per capita than now, but no gun violence. My first reaction was, 20 years ago more people used guns for hunting, and 20 years ago people didn’t own military style automatic/semi-automatic weapons, like those used in these mass shootings. If we don’t do anything about gun control, and hope that parents, schools, and churches can change the “Life is no more important than a video game” mindset, how many years will it take to see results? And how about the adults who snapped? Who’s responsible for them? If we do try to do something about gun control (longer vetting, etc), there’s still no way to get all of the automatic/semi-automatic guns out of the hands of people who shouldn’t have them. There needs to be discussion (respectfully), and it needs to begin NOW, and something needs to change, because this system of “Everyone has the right to own as many guns, no matter how powerful, as they want” just isn’t working. Start with the premise that “Everyone has the right to live without wondering where the next shooter is” and figure out what will do that.
Well said, Andy.
Stand-by for stupidity.
Well said, Andy
Stand-by for stupidity.
Ha, yup. It’s been all over my FB page. Each one proving my point.
Another very thoughtful piece that some will just diminish out of hand because they just can’t bring themselves to see the forest for the trees. I have worked in the criminal justice system for about 35 years now, and have seen a great deal of crime and criminals. The fact we can’t even talk about it without raging on both sides is ridiculous. The fact that Congress won’t talk about it, hold hearings or even sponsor research is ridiculous. We can’t find solutions to our gun death problems without talking about it and trying to figure out solutions. We should at least try to do that.
I own a gun. I’m not a hunter, but decided that I might want to protect myself while doing home calls on offenders. Thankfully, I’ve never needed to use it. I came close once with a snarling dog, but that’s it. My life hasn’t been yet touched by gun death or from a mass homicide and I am thankful of that. This isn’t a simple issue and there aren’t simple solutions. We can do much more that we have and we should at least try.
As for those who like to throw around the 2nd Amendment, I get it and liberals like me don’t want to take away your guns. We do want regulations, background checks, and limits on what kind of firepower is available to common citizens. I’m also sure that those that will throw stones on my comment will have little regard for my 1st Amendment right to speak my opinion, or for you to write your column, just because they disagree. It’s okay to disagree, but it is not okay to just put our heads in the sand all the time and not try to work for a better America.
As usual, right on, Andy! I have reached the point where the gun violence in our country has made me think that it’d be a good idea to ban all guns. I’m sick to death of the deaths caused by guns. I used to be moderate on this point, but now I don’t really care if the government took away everybody’s guns. Good riddance. But they won’t. They won’t do anything. They never do. They never will. So rest easy, gun fanatics. Once again, it’s not the time to talk about it. It won’t be the time when the next mass shooting happens either.
I agree with you, Andy. When is Washington, Lansing, etc. going to listen and take action?
All I have seen in past is idol talk and no action. Does the NRA have that much influence? Should THEY be banned??
Thanks for speaking your mind.
Nope, they shouldn’t be banned. But our campaign finance laws should be.
Definetly right on that one. The NRA owns a lot of politicians.
Yeah, right, Andy, make more laws for things that millions of other gun owners aren’t doing. If liberals were honest, they would know that the biggest difference between 40 to 50 years ago when I was growing up is not the guns or the people who own them. It is the fact that young people live in a world of unreality. They see videos and play video games and see movies that have an effect on them. If we should ban something, it’s the movies that liberal Hollywood makes. Parents allow kids to spend hours in that atmosphere without a filter to balance it. Kids don’t see anything as real anymore – until it hits home like this shooting. But to blame all gun owners or guns is just so wrong. I resent it when you say that gun owners think more of their hobby than anything else. Most gun owners are active in their community and care about teaching young people to be responsible. Further more, you can get rid of guns, but you have to face it that this kid could have walked into that school with several bombs and done a whole lot more damage.
So the wack job at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas was a kid. Young people live in a world of unreality? I think you should examine your own self about reality and if you live in it. With that type of reasoning you don’t.
You beat me too it.
Young people today live in a reality where they can’t feel safe at school. Where they are being murdered by maniacs several times every year. They are powerless to do anything about it and the adults won’t help them either.
It reminds me of Israel, where they never know when and where the next suicide bomber is going to detonate, but they have no choice but to go out and try to live their lives. That is what our kids are going through. They have no choice but to go to school and hope it doesn’t happen to them, because the adult won’t do a damn thing about it.
Do you mean young people like the Las Vegas shooter?
Andrew, This is a wonderful post. I will pass it along to our Senator. Now finally may be the beginning of a real change in our mass-murder insanity.
Thank you, sir. Who is he/she?
I will send a summary of my ideas on Gun Control to Se. Debbie Stabenow. I will attach your great blog post.
I just met Debbie last night. At a speech, she mentioned guns. Which is a start.
I just found out Sen. Stabenow’s email will not accept attachments. And, your post probably is too long to fit her email format. So, I will send a separate email, referencing and linking to you.
I pray they do more than mention it. I too will be contacting anybody who will listen!
Maybe try just adding a link. Not sure if they’d accept those either, though.
Done. She took it.
I read they censor every link and attachment before she gets it for security reasons and that no viruses get through. I wouldn’t bet on that she got it.
Make a law to forbid lobbyists to donate money to politicians, that would change the mind set of congress.
Thank you for being a voice of reason. Andy you are appreciated and welcomed. When do we do something about assault weapons ? the next time another mass shooting happens?? when??No one that i know who owns a gun has an assault weapon.
They do it because it makes them feel powerful. It’s a inferior complexion issue.
Right now the right is blaming the FBI for this last massacre. Okay, fine. Are you going to blame the FBI for the previous ones, or the next ones? There will be more and you know it.
Even if the FBI was following this kids closely, or the social worker spoke up, there was no law in place to stop him from purchasing this rifle. The only things what would had really prevented him from making that purchase are a felon conviction or being on a terrorist watch list. He didn’t meet any of that criteria, so it was a perfectly legal purchase and there is nothing anyone could had done to stop him for making that purchase. That is the result of lax gun laws and that is why we need to toughen them.
And when I was growing up, I watched westerns where somebody was being shot at all the time. And then we would put on our play guns and holsters and play cowboys and Indians. After Parkland happened, all I could think of was Bob Dylan’s song from the 1960’s called Blowing in the Wind, and the line in that goes something like this “How many deaths will it take til they know that too many people have died??”
“The democrats may remember their lines, but how quickly they forget the
lessons of the past.” Ronald Regan.
Those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Not ure who stated that fact.
A little history lesson for you liberals.
Hitler was also a proponent of gun registry. He and the nazi’s (liberals) were all for gun
registration. They claimed it was for public safety. Shortly after they got the guns registered than
the gestapo and ss went around the country and confiscated the guns.
Shortly after that came the “krystal nacht”. Night of the broken glass in English.
The ss and gestapo started rounding up all the Jews and other undesirables.
It was not for public safety, it was for the safety of the ss and gestapo. Reporters/opinion makers like andrew quickly learned to toe the party line or else.
Yes, some of you liberal/socialists democrats will try to claim that such a thing cannot happen here, I beg to differ. If the socialists/liberal democrats think that they can do such a thing they will try it. An armed peaceful law abiding man/women is a citizen, an unarmed man/woman is a
slave/victim to the party in control.
Benjamin Franklin ( I do believe) said a quote something like this “those who give up freedom for safety and security, will get neither safety nor security.
Do you call living in fear freedom?
Nice cut and paste, as I’m getting that same article from my conservative friends. So far, no one has been able to explain how more guns, with more power, in the hands of more people, regardless of mental or violent history, is going to stop senseless killing. You want gun rights due to your enshrined right to the Second Amendment? You’ve got it – we have the most guns per capita in the world. But your gun rights give gun rights to people who should not have them, because we also have the most mass shootings in the world. And your solution is more guns. Arm the teachers? Do we force people to pass gun proficiency tests in order to get a teaching certificate? Do we only hire teachers who are willing to carry guns? If not, do parents ask which teachers are armed so they know which classroom they want for their children? What about sporting events and bus drivers? And then we have to think about night clubs, concerts, shopping malls, theaters and churches. No one is coming to get your guns, and you know you will qualify to purchase more, so why are you so concerned about better background checks to stop those with mental or violent histories from legally purchasing?
Oh, and not everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal/socialist/democrat, some of us just think for ourselves. I grew up with guns, I used guns for sport, for hunting, and as an adult had them in the house for protection. I lost a loved one due to careless handling of a firearm, I have had guns pointed at me in my line of work, I have cried when my mother removed all of the guns in our house because she was afraid of my father, I have cried when my significant other snapped and held a friend at gunpoint. I believe in your right, and that of any other qualified person, to have guns for hunting, for sport, or for protection. Please respect my right to believe that no one, other than the military, needs to have a military style gun, and that longer and more thorough background checks might keep those with mental or violent histories from purchasing guns.
Very well said Linda. Only problem is you make to much sense. Gun nuts don’t.
There is so much wrong in Jim III ‘s rant. First of all Nazi’s were not liberals in any true sense of the word. For eight years Obama did not take your guns. This is an irrational fear. The Assault Weapon Ban went for ten years and no one came for your handguns or shotguns or hunting rifles. The main outcome from that ban was fewer mass shootings for those ten years. Banning them again will help, but no one is coming for your guns so there will still be these incidents. But over time and with further discussions about analyzing who can and can’t buy firearms, mental health treatment, etc. will help.
The quote you attributed to Ben Franklin is a good one, however, it can also be taken as a stand against the types of policy Trump extols. He is for restricting many freedoms in the name of security like building a wall, excluding certain groups of people over others, restrictive trade, limits on due process in certain cases and not in others, a endorsement on police brutality in some instances, and so on. These are all restrictions on the freedom we are accustomed to.
Everyone needs to let the senators and reps. know how you feel. Not hard just Email them. It’s time to do something!!
What you and all the liberal posters fail to understand is that the Founding Fathers and those who fought in the Revolutionary War, were individuals who lived under tyranny.
They understood what it was to be oppressed by a hostile government.
President Trump is not extolling a tyrannical government. It is the likes of obama, clintons and other liberals who want a dictatorship.
The trouble with a lot of the liberal writers is that they suffer under the delusion that somehow that such a government would not be hostile to them. By the time they realize it they find themselves tossed into a prison or worse.
One of the ways I can tell that someone does not understand what the Constitution says is when they say that America is a democracy. It is not. It is a Constitutional Republic. The word democracy does not appear in the Constitution, neither do the standards of a democracy.
DO not try to say that the Writers meant a democracy. They knew the meanings of both words and what they represented. They chose a republican form of government.
You know, when Jim III rants like this, I become more convinced that he might actually be a Russian troll after all. No American who lived through those administrations would seriously believe what Jim III believes. And he did go into panic mood when Tom mentioned reporting someone to the FBI in a previous post. If he was an American he would know there are no grounds to warrant an FBI investigation. Also have you noticed that sometimes Jim III sounds like a completely different and more rational person? So he either took his medication, or his shift in the troll station was up, and troll number 2 jumped on.
I am on to you Jim III.
How bout my rights jimIII. I would like to walk around without worrying about a nut with a gun. We have rights too. You guys want to play army, then join the army.
I was in the regular army for 3 years and part of the army reserve for 19 years after that. I carried an M-16 for years in the infantry. Received a lot of training when we could use our weapon and when we could not. I also had training with a security company that I worked for. Again those who took that level of training for carrying a handgun had to take about 15 hours of class room training.
Then we went to a pistol range and fired an actual gun. Then and only then were those who passed the course could apply for a permit to carry a gun on a clients property.
I would not allow someone like you teddy to carry a gun. Your lack of knowledge about guns raises some serious questions about your ability to properly use one.
So are you saying all that training should be a requirement before allowing people to purchase a gun?
Sounds that way doesn’t it Fred. Just kinda proves a point doesn’t it?
Have you actually served in the army in combat? As far a carrying a gun, I would trust myself more than you. I would not want to be around you if your carrying because you still think your playing army.
What does having to have served in a combat situation have to do anything?
The thing is I have had a lot of hours in training on when and when not to use a
firearm in a hostile situation. The taking of another human life is a serious matter. In some of the psychology classes I took and listening to those who served in combat, it can be very easy to kill another human being. It is the after shock of realizing that you had killed another human being that sends some people into a psychological shock situation. There are people out there who can handle such an event and there are those who mentally cannot handle the situation. And there are those who fall between those two situations.
As I have stated in other posts earlier in other columns, I have had on occasion had bullets fly past me, the bullets did miss all of us in the group I was in. Do I blame the gun that fired the bullets at us? The blame went to the individual pulling the trigger.
That was the first time.
In 1998, one week before Thanksgiving I had dropped off my brother-in-law off so he could catch a ride down to the Pontiac area for work. I was west bound on Pierson Road just east of Clio Road. I picked up a man that was being chased by some gang bangers who were chasing him because he was upset about them stealing almost everything from his apartment. I picked him up and drove off. One of the gang bangers fired a few rounds towards us. He did hit the truck. I am quite positive that the shooter did not have a back ground check or go through the legal process to get a gun. Criminals do not care about laws.
Oh, by the way I had emailed Andrew about the shooting later in the day.
So are you saying civilians should be required to go through the same training first?
This is all madness. We depend upon the civility of all to conduct our daily lives. Certainly it’s the shooter and not the gun, but why is it an essential freedom to promote unlimited firepower and ammo. Sandy Hook has never been addressed, and bump-stocks eluded a ban by our controlled congress. What could have been easier? Lawmaking is controlled by money. However, squeeze so hard and even the most timid will rise up. The irony here is that by the pornographic promotion of firepower, I think we’re in a downward spiral to the restriction of guns, and even confiscation, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy, NRA!
Actually for over 20 years, Democrats have been wanting to completely ban all firearms from private ownership. Dianne Feinstein openly admitted it on camera.
https://youtu.be/Mj4AcjyuV38
I looked at your link. Senator Feinstein said NOTHING about banning “all firearms from private ownership!!” She wanted to ban killer assault rifles!! And, many of us agree with her!! Daddie, please stop with your disingenuousness, your distortions, your lies!!!!
She said “turn em all in”.
You are a liar.
The AR-15 has been around since the 1950s. It is a medium powered .223 rifle round that has zero magic capabilities. The only reason Andy and other brain dead libs keep calling for it’s ban is because the fake news liberal media keeps on screaming “AR-15! AR-15! AR-15!”
There are literally hundreds of firearms that use a .223 round. Sorry some of you idiots don’t know any better.
Ya but not to many that are capable of firing a hundred rounds as aa fast you can pull the trigger idiot. So you defend killing 17 people with one right?
There hundreds of semi automatic .223 caliber rifles you dumbass.
Not capable of firing a hundred rounds. I wouldn’t call you a dumb ass because a dumb ass is smarter than you.
You do not know anything about semi-automatic or full automatic guns.
The ar-15 is a semi-automatic gun. You squeeze the trigger and it only fires one round.
A fully automatic gun has three settings on it. The first is the safety switch. The shooter cannot cannot fire the gun.
The 2nd setting is semi-automatic. The shooter squeezes the trigger and only one round if fired.
The third setting is the full automatic selection. The shooter squeezes the trigger and the weapon continues to fire until either the shooter releases the trigger or
ammo is expended in the magazine.
The trouble with firing any hand held fully automatic weapon is what is called weapon creep. That is where the weapon climbs and goes either to the right or the left. Depending on the make and model of the weapon.
I have seen men firing an M-16 on full auto and they lost control of the M-16.
The M-16’s barrel went up and to the right and in a couple of cases they ended up shooting nearly straight up in the air.
Fully automatic guns have been illegal for the average law abiding citizen to have in their possession since about 1934. If a law abiding citizen were to own an semi-automatic gun and they were to somehow change it into a fully automatic gun then they are in violation of the law. The police/law enforcement agencies would place that person under arrest for doing such an illegal activity.
Done. I’ve had it. I’m not wasting any more of this blog’s space on nonsense arguments about the technicalities of the AR-15. Post this crap again and I take it down. I’m serious. Healthy debate is good. This kind of stuff is designed to move the debate somewhere stupid and pointless. I’ve seriously had it with this shit. My blog. Follow the rules or buh-bye.
With proper maintenance, you can fire 20k rounds through a rifle with no problem.
I easily have over 5k rounds through my AR-15.
Here are 14 pages worth of .223 semi automatic rifles from ONLY ONE RETAILER. So much for your stupid claim.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/category/firearms/rifles/semi-automatic/223-remington-and-556-nato.do?sku_instock_b=true
Ya you idiot. I said there is no other gun capable of firing a hundred rounds. I know there are a lot of 223 caliber guns out there. AR 15 is one that has that capability.
Additionally Andy, we do not own firearms as a “hobby”. It is a natural right which can’t be nullified by liberal haters like yourself. Our founding fathers specifically enumerated this right in the Second Amendment so hate filled nutbags like yourself could not have your politician of choice write an executive order to confiscate them from law abiding Americans.
You sir are a complete fool. If it’s not a hobby then you are saying you own them to kill people.
Many of us believe your description of firearms as, “a natural right,” is similar to writing that air conditioning is a natural right. Or, that non-stick Teflon pans are a natural right. Basically, a preposterous, banal, kooky thing to write.
Firearm possession IS a constitutional right, within limits, but it is NOT on the same plane as life, liberty, air to breathe, water to drink…
No American ever will or could confiscate guns from Americans. That is one of your Straw Man baloney items. Let us please get together to limit the sale of new guns. And, you, Dad, please lie back. This dopey cliche stuff you write does NOT help your cause.
To any one using their 1st Amendment rights on the internet to tell me the 2nd Amendment only covers muskets because the AR-15 had not been invented yet: Get off your computer, write a letter with a quill pen and have it delivered by a man on a horse,
then we can discuss why you are wrong.
The calls that you are hearing today for gun control have nothing to do with protecting American citizens from violence. What you are witnessing is a kind of class war.
The left hates rural America, gun owning America, the America that elected Donald Trump. They call it “gun control”, it’s not, it’s people control.
For the left, voters who cannot be controlled can’t be trusted. Tucker Carlson.
The left is all about controlling people.
When the government fears the people, there is freedom. When the people fear the government, then there is tyranny.
Calm down little man. Nobody is going to take your toys away from you.
Yeah, well, they also said well-regulated militia. You ain’t militia, and guns are certainly not well-regulated.
Thank you for absolutely proving you have absolutely no clue Andy Heller. You are officially devoid of facts and nothing more than fake news.
See below Andy. You are 100% wrong….. and you always have been.
He called you news again.
This is an excellent overview of the Second Amendment by Penn and Teller. (Actually only Penn Gillette speaks) It provides the true meaning and background. Top notch explanation in under 2 minutes.
https://youtu.be/P4zE0K22zH8
You won’t answer my question will ya. You really take Penn and Teller seriously? Gee I am willing to bet they recorded that before Mandalay Bay.
Working dad needs to be on a shooter watch list. Anyone know his real identity? Maybe he is that 400 pound dude Trump keeps talking about in his mom’s basement.
Right on!
I am in agreement in that. Email is required to post here so I am sure someone can find out who he is. The guy should be looked at because o f some of the wacko things and hate he spews.
I am a Concealed Pistol License holder. Already been through every background check they have. I carry a handgun daily and have many friends in law enforcement. I shoot regularly at the range with officers, deputies and troopers.
I hope that makes you happy.
And your point is what? You feel like a big man when you are holding a gun?
Big Whoop! So is my mom. Just like you, many of us shoot, and know cops. But, even the cops we know do not write crazy stuff on the www, as you do.
I think Working Dad is trying to tell us that he is a cop. No wonder he conceals his identity. A lot of things he says in here would get him fired from the force.
The AR-15 is a sporting rifle invented in the 1950s by the Armalite Rifle Company. It is not a military rifle or “assault rifle”.
https://www.nssf.org/msr/
Baloney. It is much more powerful than the .22 we all grew up with. It is the model and basis for the M-16 rifle, which has been the US military’s main rifle since the second half of the Vietnam War. Now, the US uses all sorts of variations on the AR-15 in all its lethal enterprises.
The primary infantry weapon for most US military branches is now the M4 Carbine… Not the M16.
Try to get at least one fact right.
When you kill 17 people or any huge number in one setting, that is an assault weapon. Oh, you could accomplish it with a semi-automatic handgun too, but it would be a little harder and you’d have to be a better shot. No one needs any of these rifles.
Sorry pal. Just checked with my son in law Afghanistan vet. He carried a M16. He said most military carry them. Special ops and other specialized units carry M4 because they are a liter version on the M16
Dad, you misleading prick: You know darn well that the M-4 is just a slight development of the M-16, which was a slight development of the AR-15.
Show us some pictures of M-4s, please. People would see that the M-4 looks exactly like the AR-15, except a little shorter.
You are an evil creature of the Devil. You try to mislead us with slight terminology details. Why in the world do you want to defend people who mass-murder ninth graders?! Cool it, you evil fool.
Just checked with my son in law. Ex Marine that was in Afghanistan. He carried a M 16. He said most combat personnel carry them. Special ops and other smaller units carried M4s because they we a little smaller and liter. So Dadio you are wrong.
That is right Jims Both of my steps sons are in the Army. The older served a tour in Iraq and a tour in Afghanistan. I have a picture right here of him holding an M4. He is a drone operator and his unit was issued carbine M4s, because they need something smaller that doesn’t get in the way. The rest of the infantry is still issued full sized M16s.
Let’s see if Working Dad can dazzle us with some more of his superior firearm knowledge.
Yep…. The M4 is the primary infantry weapon for U.S. armed forces…. You’re welcome!
https://m.warhistoryonline.com/guns/m-4_carbine-x.html
Marines all use a M16A4. You can post all your bs you want. You are dead wrong. You are such a patriot you don’t believe a decorated Marine. You again are an idiot and you prove it with every post.
District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held, in a 5–4 decision, that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense …
It makes me so happy that Andy Heller’s bullshit statement above is proven wrong by his namesake SCOTUS case.
Um, well aware of both the 2nd Amendment and the Heller ruling. No one said you don’t have a right to firearms. No one wants to take that away. But we do need to regulate them by restoring the Brady Law. Wow, you’re quick to claim victory when no such victory exists – kinda similar to some president I know. Hmmm.
You claimed above that my Second Amendment rights are dependent on my being a member of a “militia”. SCOTUS ruled you are a complete liar on the topic Andy.
Honestly i would like to see the talk about AR-15 stop. I get it. They look scary and have the same design as the M-16, but that isn’t the issue. The Mini -14 for example shoots the .223 and there are 40 round magazines available for it, but some people might mistake it for a deer rifle and assume it’s not as deadly.
The issue isn’t what the rifle looks like and talking about “AR-15 military style assault weapons” is just misleading and unproductive. Because it’s an AR-15, that doesn’t make it more powerful. .223 is actually weak compared to some deer rifle rounds. The military selected the 5.56 (military version of the .223) because it’s cheap, not because it’s more powerful.
If you look at the picture on the top of this page, you will see those scary AR-15s, but if you look closer, you might notice something different. The shooter on the left is using a 6 round magazine and the shooter on the right is using a 10 round magazine. I will bet that picture was taken in a state with strict gun laws where magazines over ten rounds are strictly prohibited for both handguns and long guns. Only six or seven states have enacted such a law so far. Most of them did so after a school shooting.
In most states with lax gun laws, like Michigan and Florida, you will never see an AR-15 owner with a 10 round magazine. He would be laughed out of the AR-15 club for that. 30 round magazines is the standard, but some will be up to 100 round steel Surefire Mags, or 100 round drums for the AK-47s. There are even 50 round drum magazines for Glock handguns.
The conversation needs to start with the magazines. We need to start with laws to restrict sales of high capacity magazines, and then go from there. This is only one step, but getting control over those high capacity magazines could go a long way to curbing the gun violence we are seeing. The reasonable gun owners should be happy to compromise. They get to keep their treasured guns, right?
For those of you think you need those hi-cap mags in case you ever need to stand up to a tyrannical government, that is just laughable, and I think you know that on some level. You are no match for the U.S. Military and they are NOT afraid of you. Besides this is a America, it’s not the 2nd Amendment that keeps our government in check, it’s our system of checks and balances. So kindly stop pretending it’s something else.
For the rest of us, let’s stop getting hysterical about AR-15s and start calmly discussing how we get can legislation to restrict magazines passed. Let’s do it in Michigan now, not after we have a high profile school shooting. Your kids, grand kids, nieces and nephews will thank you for taking steps to prevent what happened in Florida from happening here.
Fred, I agree with you. Great starting point, also would like every county sheriff to be able to take away all guns from those whom he deems as dangerous or mentally unfit to own a gun.
The British Army was the best trained army at the time of the American revolution.
According to you the American Army should have been beaten handily by the British.
If you think that the whole of the Armed forces will violate the Constitution and be part
of a gun grab by federal authorities you are sadly mistaken. Yes, there would be some that
would do that.
Also some County Sheriffs would not do such a thing. Some would.
I and a lot of other veterans took an oath to defend America against both domestic and foreign
enemies. We vowed to protect the Constitution, not the President, member of Congress or any
other government bureaucrat trying to overturn the Constitution.
Ah, I see. Children are collateral damage then – acceptable casualties of the low-grade ever-war you and the rest of the paranoids think is always running. Good to know. (And by the way, if you know military, as you claim, the Brits had hellacious supply lines and zero communications, and French support was crucial.
Andrew, Time to stop taking Jimmie the Third seriously. This Jimmie post is bonkers.
There a lot of people who end up being collateral damage. Take Chicago for instance,
they have very strict gun laws. The gang bangers are shooting each other and a lot of innocent victims. The nasty fact is that the shooting in Florida was equal to about 2 and a half weekends in Chicago alone. IF you add in L.A. , New York and a couple of other cities it might be one day body count.
Of course those cities have been controlled by democrats for years.
As for collateral damage, A lot of conservatives consider abortion murder. In fact you do not understand the views and ideals of the liberal margaret sanger. Yes, she was a staunch liberal. She was a staunch advocate of eugenics. Do you know what eugenics is andrew? If you and the other liberals here do not understand, here it is in short. The elimination of those thought to be inferior to them. She advocated that the blacks and those deemed unfit by her liberal standards be sterilized and other wise prevented from having children. hitler and the libral nazi’s used some of her values to justify the elimination of Jews.
Yes the British had poor communications and supply lines, so did the American Army.
Cuckoo… Cuckoo… Cuckoo… [Outer Limits Theme plays…]
JimIII, your president is the commander and chief and as a armed service member you will obey his orders and not the orders you think should be obeyed. I want to know were in the constitution it is alright to give the mentally ill the right to a gun. I think the founders of the constitution would think we would have the common sense not to do that.
The oath has a statement that a member has to obey a LAWFUL order of a superior.
If the order is unlawful and illegal, then the individual can refuse to NOT TO OBEY an unlawful, illegal order. The superior officer can try to bring charges against the individual for not following an illegal order.
In that case the individual has a right to defend his/her decision not to obey the illegal order. The officer has to prove that his/her order was lawful.
One thing I forgot to mention, the oath says to defend the Constitution from
all enemies, both foreign and domestic.
It DOES NOT SAY to defend the President or any member of CONgress or political party.
Around 1995 or so slick wiley and a few democrats tried to pass a law that would
have changed the oath from “defending the Constitution” to “defending the President”.
It was quickly dropped when veteran groups and various others sent some strong messages to the White House and CONgress that such a change was unconstitutional.
slick wiley and the democrats got the message loud and clear, do not try such a tactic. Any politician that would have voted for such an unconstitutional law would have been very quickly voted out of office.
Oh what a crock. Spoken like the true Russian troll you are.
You guys, I just put in a good counter to Evil Dad. I replied to his post above. I hope you will look back, and read about AR-15s and M-16s and M-4s.
There is yet another link up there proving you wrong….. Again
You can find anything you want in any link. So you think everything on the internet is true? Again you are a fool Dadio. You know nothing and look everything up that you post. You have no first hand knowledge of nothing
You had better tell the Commandant of the Marine Corps that he is wrong when he states that the M4 Carbine is the standard infantry weapon of the Marines.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2015/10/26/commandant-approves-m4-as-standard-weapon-for-marine-infantry/
Oh ya you probably know him personally.
This thing about the M-4 is utterly irrelevant! Do you even remember the point of this conversation? It was keeping killer firearms out of the hands of murderers. [Working Dad, Please never bring your weapons into my neighborhood!]
Exactly. I’m deleting any further B.S. diversions like that.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself ……….
Do we as a nation love our guns more than our children?
Do you as an individual love your guns more than your children?
The hate filled, violent left, fueled by BS articles from people like Andy Heller are once again threatening to murder, rape and torture innocent men, women and children. Not only are they filling social media with calls for beheadings, rapes, disembowelments, hangings, bombings, etc; but they are also vandalizing billboard signs.
“Kill the NRA” – This message was brought to you by the Democrat party and leftist writers like Andy Heller.
http://m.wave3.com/wave/db_353385/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=li4IeUxm
Watch it Working Dad. From reading some of the posts by the liberal writers here they
plan on turning you and I into the thought police because we will not accept their views
of the world.
The one thing that liberals cannot stand is someone who can think for themselves.
It is the same thing that went on in Germany, Russia, China and other countries that followed
liberal/socialist agendas.
A neighbor would turn a name into the local authorities and say that they were not following
the party line. It is the same thing that the liberals on this site are trying to do.
You and I are considered “threats” to their way of thinking.
So they rely on the tactics of saul salinsky . Use slander, libel and other terms to deride the
individual that does not toe the party line.
Paranoia will destroy ya!!
A Russian who lived behind the old Soviet Iron curtain would think that way.
That cuckoo clock is chiming again. Working Dad, the liberals are not killing or torturing anybody. You pal Dick Cheney was the big Torture guy. We eventually reined him in.
Working Dad, this one’s beyond the pale. The Left is threatening to rape, kill and torture. That’s it, bud. If you want to advance the conversation, fine. If you want to be a righty voice fine, but that stuff is out of bounds. Next post I see like that and it’s buh-bye. That’s ridiculous.
I referenced postings that can be found all over social media. The attached article clearly shows the vandalized billboard stating “KILL THE NRA”.
You yourself Andy Heller regularly insinuate that NRA members and conservatives don’t care about murdered children. Your false statements to this affect are unacceptable but you still put them out there.
Thicker skin Andy
I won’t have a “thicker skin” when it comes to you regurgitating violent, untrue rhetoric. Do that stuff elsewhere, not here. I saw all that crap you reference out there, and it’s not about killing (or raping or all that other stuff) human beings. Kill the NRA means kill the organization, which I don’t agree with. They have a right to exist same as any. But our campaign finance laws, as written, don’t. You ever worry that you’re simply repeating Russian bot nonsense?
I have been a member of the NRA for over 35 years. You “Russian bot” arguments is beyond stupid. I have been standing up for the rights of law abiding citizens since long before Al Gore supposedly invented the internet.
Like it not, you’re likely a Russian bot-virus spreader. And here we thought you were a patriot. (If you were, wouldn’t you be furious at the proven Russian meddling?)
Here’s the other thing, Dad. If you’ve been an NRA member for that long, then you remember it used to be a reputable organization focused on teaching firearm safety. Now it’s nothing more than PAC, and it has blood on its hands for its defense of any guns in any hands by any means.
Andy Heller – Would you allow postings which directly link the verbiage I described or would you delete the links like you have done before?
Hell no! That crap’s nonsense. Besides, you don’t get to extrapolate the dumb actions of a few to everybody who dares to disagree with you on guns. If we’re going to do that, can I assume all conservatives are like you? If so … yikes.
Geez,. Do you even read the stuff you post? It said the sign was vandalism. Why the need to sensationalize everything you post?
The WMD has looked in the mirror and is disgusted with what he is seeing, thus the self-immolation.
People, we are better than this. It is possible to respectfully rebut a belief that is different than ours. We did it in high school and it was called debate. If someone gives me polite, well thought out explanations as to why they think my position is wrong, I will consider them. If someone gets in my face, screams at me and calls me names, I will no longer listen. If someone lumps me in to an imaginary group of everything he hates, I will no longer listen, because I think for myself and do not belong to any party or group. If someone invites themselves to a forum of people who believe differently than they do, then attack everyone on that forum, I will believe that their only goal was to attack and disrupt.
This is why the students in Florida feel the adults of this country have let them down. We can’t work together to find a solution, and the mass killings keep happening.
Absolutely correct. Certain individuals see it fit to use derogatory language and acuse liberals of being murderers, rapists, disembowlers, executioners and whatever. They hide behind a computer screen and say whatever they want. Can’t reason with them unless you are on their language terms. I am sure they wouldn’t have the guts to say to my face what they say on here. WD is nothing but a troll that likes to disagree with everything you say. If you said it was raining out he would say it’s precipitation not rain.He has gone by different names on different blogs and has been banned by many. He will surely deny it.
Seek help.
People are allowed to have different political opinions without all of your delusions being factual.
Less alcohol
More sleep
Get outside more
What in the world is this silly post? And, this discussion is NOT political, Daddio. You try to make it so, but we are discussing murder here. Do you have a political take on murder?Tom
Working Dad and Jim-Bob the Third, please go away! This could have been a discussion of good ideas for limiting mass murder of kids. You contribute nothing. If we were in any face-to-face debate, we would destroy you, and send you away weeping with your scaly tails between your hairy legs. Just, please, go away forever.
Tom they would never debate anyone face to face. They don’t have the guts.
Here is the way one school district in Texas has decided to protect heir students. This story is from msnbc this weekend.
The Argyle School Independent School District decided in 2014 to allow highly trained membersof the staff to carry guns on campus to prevent mass shootings.
This past weekend on msnbc Sheriff Paul Cairnly of Austin, Texas described the process in which certain highly trained and vetted staff would be allowed to carry guns.
They also have signs that say: ” Please be aware the staff at Argyle ISD are armed and may use whatever force is necessary to protect our students.”
That is one way to definitely to stop mass shooters. Of course the Argyle ISD does not have any signs that say that it is a gun free zone.
If every school district followed this model there would be virtually zero school shooting incidents.
So the cop that was playing with his gun that went off in a local school was ok? Lucky no one was hurt. No guns in schools period. Like the dad of Kalyn Roland’s said in a recent article you need metal detectors at every school.
Those kids in Florida aren’t messing around. They are more adult about this than most of the adults. These are our future leaders and voters. That makes me feel optimistic about the future. Kids who have to live with the fear of being gunned down in school are not going to forget when they are adults. Things are going to change around here.
It is definitely coming. Should have happened long ago.
1. Jim III’s English writing is so bad that I believe he may be a real Russian internet disruption agent.
2. Working Dad’s thinking/empathy/humanity is so bad that he probably is a person who has been taken in by Russian disruption, and spreads it.
Thank you! This article will go with me. I am so tired of their same rhetoric, I now have an answer.
Appreciate that, Diane. Eventually a few lone voices in the wilderness start to have an effect. Big snowballs are made from small ones.